Vanderhoven7, regarding your comment that the temple has been destroyed (with the exception the Western Wall, as mentioned by Jammer) some fundamentalist Christians, including some who are TV evangelist theologians, say that in our modern times the temple will be rebuilt and later be destroyed by the anti-Christ. They thus teach that conditions will exist for a second fulfillment in regards to the temple being destroyed. I've seen a number of movies (which I think are based upon books by Tim Francis LaHaye, who was a baptist evangelical Christian minister, but is now dead) which depict this idea.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Vanderhoven7, while Matthew chapter 24 probably was meant to entirely be fulfilled in the 1st century CE, and that Revelation was probably meant to be fulfilled before the revolt of Simon bar Kokhba, it means the scriptures partially failed. That is partly because the human governments have not been replaced by one government with Christ as king over every human. It is also because of what I state below.
I noticed that you say to that disprove your conclusion, namely that which you list as option "c.", "one would have to find something in verses 1-35 that clearly did not happen in the first century A.D.". I found somethings which which meet that test. Namely, what is described in Matthew 24:30-31 have not happened yet! People have not seen "the Son of man coming on clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Likewise Christ, by means of his angels (by the way, does that suggest Christ is in some sense an archangel in charge of other angels? Rev. 12:7 says Michael has angels under his command), has not gathered the chosen ones "from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity." Furthermore the tribulation of 70 CE was not as great as that of the latter part of the Sion bar Kokhba's revolt/war with the Romans (which ended in about 135 CE). That means that Matthew 24:21 was not fully fulfilled in the 1st century CE, since the latter part of that verse says that there would be a great tribulation of such tremendous magnitude that it would not occur again (meaning it would not be exceeded or equaled by another). Yet what happened in about 135 CE was greater in impact upon the Jews than what happened in 70 CE, and the Nazi holocaust was even more tremendous upon the Jews.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
scholar said something which supports the idea that Christ's presence starts before the great tribulation. Before I explain that I provide the following context.
On page 13 of this topic thread I said the following as part of a reply to Jeffro. "I noticed that the tribulation mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 (which is described as happening in Judea) is very different from the tribulation of Revelation and of the bowl's of wrath mentioned in Revelation. It is very difficult to correlate Revelation with Matthew chapter 24."
On page 14 of this topic thread scholar made a reply to Vanderhoven7 which besides addressing something Vanderhoven7 said, also pertains to whether the great tribulation follows or precedes the presence of Christ. There scholar said the following. "The book of Revelation with the Four Horsemen which nicley parallel those significant events discussed earlier in the Olivet Discourse ....".
How is Revelation related to the debate mentioned? [Note: the following quotes are from the 1984 NWT.] Well in Matthew 24:6-8 Jesus says what is to take place before the end. There he mentions wars in one place after another, food shortages, and earthquakes, and says such are "a beginning of pangs of distress". The parallel passage in Luke 21:11 amplifies this by also saying there will be pestilences. Furthermore, Luke 21:9 says "... these things must take place first, but the end does not [occur] immediately." Jesus indicates that such are to happen before the great tribulation, for in verse 9 of Matthew chapter 24 he says "Then people will deliver you up to tribulation". Still later, after he says the disgusting thing that causes desolation will be seen, in verse 21 he says "for then there will be great tribulation". Still later in 27 he says "so the presence of the son of man will be." The comment in verse 27 can be understood as meaning that after the great tribulation occurs, the presence of Christ will begin, but the specific wording in verse 27 can also be understood as saying that the presence of the Christ will be while the events of Matthew 24:6-26 are taking place, including visible people on Earth being falsely proclaimed as the Christ!
Now I tie in what Revelation says about the ride of the four horsemen. Revelation 6:2 mentions a rider on a white horse with a crown and conquering. Verses 3-4 mention a second rider on a horse, one who takes peace away from the earth so that people slaughter one another. Verses 5-6 mention a third rider on a horse, one who proclaims high prices for the basic food staples, thus indicating food shortages. Verses 7-8 mention a fourth rider on a horse, one who will bring death resulting from violence to people, from food shortage, and from deadly plague [it also says from wild beasts]. Revelation 6:3-8 thus well correlate with Matthew 24:7,12 and Luke 21:11! After the description of these events Revelation 7:14 speaks of those who "... come out of the great tribulation". Revelation 7:14 thus ties in with Matthew 24:21.
In the above verses we thus see a consistent sequence of events, with what is described in Revelation 6:3-8 being well correlated with Matthew 24:7,12 and Luke 21:11. But what about the first rider on a white horse, the one mentioned in Revelation 6:2, whose rider is mentioned as being noticed before the other three riders? What is the identity of this rider whose is wearing a crown that was given to him, who also went forth conquering? Well Revelation 19:11 speaks of a white horse with rider upon it who "is called Faithful and True" and who "judges and carries on war in righteousness" and verse 13 says "he is called The Word of God" (and the Gospel of John identifies the Word of God as Jesus Christ). Furthermore, Revelation 14:14 says that on "a white cloud" is 'someone seated like a son of man, with a golden crown". Well in the gospel of Matthew Jesus Christ refers to himself as the Son of man and in Matthew 24:30 Jesus says that "the Son of man" will be seen "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Regarding Revelation 6:2 saying the rider of the white horse "went forth conquering" Revelation 17:14 says that "the Lamb ... because he is Lord of lords and King of kings" will conqueror the ten kings. We know from other verses that according to the Bible Jesus Christ is Lord of lords and King of kings and that he will conqueror human "kings" and their governments. As result, the rider white of the horse mentioned in Revelation 6:2 must be Jesus Christ according to the Bible.
Furthermore, it appears as a result of analysis of scriptures in Matthew and Revelation that are highly correlated with each other, the Bible is saying that Christ was foretold to become crowned as king and to begin a conquest before the signs of: nations fighting nation in place after place, and food shortages and pestilences in place after place, and BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION all begin, and that during this time people on Earth won't literally see Jesus Christ! It thus seems to also support the idea that Christ will be thus be present literally unseen before the great tribulation begins and before he comes noticeably/detectably to all people of the Earth. Furthermore, when did our world first experience a large number of nations fighting each other at the same time - in the same war? It was during the Great War (later called the World War 1) from 1914-1918!
It thus looks like I might have been wrong in thinking that the scriptures say Christ's presence comes after the great tribulation. It looks like scholar and the WT thus might be right that the Bible says the presence of Christ is initially invisible and begins before the great tribulation. Such an idea is a shock to me since it is the opposite of what I deduced about 22 years ago as an independent Christian (or even about 5 years earlier while I was still an active JW).Regarding references in Matthew 24:20 pertaining to "YOUR flight" and to "on the sabbath day" in our modern day there are Christians living in Jerusalem, even likely some Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, recently JW.org announced that the entire NWT has been translated into modern Hebrew and is now available and that there are Hebrew speaking JW. The JW website says there are 2,021 JW "Ministers who teach the Bible" in Israel. Thus from a biblical perspective, could be a future secondary fulfillment of Christians needing to flee Jerusalem and Judea before a future great tribulation starts.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
That is a good point Vanderhoven7 about the reference in Matthew chapter 24:20 to a Sabbath day, as the JWs and most other Christians (but not the SDA and some others) don't abstain form all work on a Sabbath day (whether the Jewish Sabbath day on the 7th day of the week, or the Christian Sabbath day on the 1st day of the week). It shows that text in Matthew about the tribulation (at least most of it) only pertains to the time of the 1st century in Judea. But perhaps it also indicates that the vast majority of Christians today by not keeping the 7th day Sabbath, are breaking a major law of Yahweh and are not following Christ in regards to observance of that Sabbath..
That reminds of something else also, namely the twisted way the WT sometimes states things. When I was a very active JW the WT had an article which said that JW don't observe the Sabbath, while at the same time it said that everyday JW rest from works to earn their own salvation (or prove their righteousness, or something like that) and thus observe a sabbath everyday. In other words, the WT was trying to make it sound that the JWs both don't observe the Sabbath and that the JWs do observe everyday as a sabbath. I thought that was a messed up deceptive doctrine, yet I mentioned that doctrine to a householder one day in field service when he asked if I (or the JWs) observe the Sabbath day. The WT had infected my thinking regarding whether the JW observe the Sabbath (or a sabbath) or not. -
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2034 - A Future History of Jehovah's Witnesses
by slimboyfat ini don't know what i am talking about... read this post at your peril.
back in the 1960s there was, seemingly, a brief period of relaxation in authoritarianism among jehovah's witnesses.
those who have read raymond franz's 'crisis of conscience' will have heard the story about dan sydlik's remark about the need to 'open some windows to let some air in here'.
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Disillusioned JW
The following is a reply to the very first post of this topic thread.
Back in the early to mid 1980s when Ronald Reagan was president of the U.S.A., I was thinking the great tribulation or Armageddon might start very soon, such as around 1984 or possibly sooner. That was largely because of the kinds of articles the WTS was putting in number of issues of the Watchtower and in the Awake! at the time, regarding Armageddon. It was also because of the idea of a generation being of 70 or 80 years (combined with the idea of the generation of 1914 CE), and because President Reagan was promoting the building of a "Star Wars" missile defense system, and he was drastically building up the U.S.A. military, and his administration was drastically spending much more money in the U.S..A.. military budget than was the case under President Carter. I was also worried because I read (and heard on the TV news) reports that the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists had moved the minute hand on their Doomsday Clock closer to midnight, indicating how very very close they thought the world was to a human caused doomsday. I thought a nuclear war might take place between the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. and as a result I wanted a drastic reduction in the number of nuclear weapons of both world powers. During the cold war with the U.S.S.R., in my anti-war mind President Reagan wanted to start a real ('hot") war with the U.S.S.R. and he thus scared me when I thought about it. I was also thinking that a false future cry claiming that "peace and security" has been achieved might happen very soon, to be immediately followed by the great tribulation. I got baptized in the very early 1980s while I was a young teenager.
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2034 - A Future History of Jehovah's Witnesses
by slimboyfat ini don't know what i am talking about... read this post at your peril.
back in the 1960s there was, seemingly, a brief period of relaxation in authoritarianism among jehovah's witnesses.
those who have read raymond franz's 'crisis of conscience' will have heard the story about dan sydlik's remark about the need to 'open some windows to let some air in here'.
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Disillusioned JW
Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus Christ does exist and does return in 2034 (or some other year), or if a great tribulation begins then, will it frighten the governing body? Will they be thinking and possibly even say the following. "We didn't actually expect Jesus Christ to return or for the great tribulation to happen. But, now that one of these events is happening what will happen to us? Oh dear, what will happen to us? We know we made false predictions and that on a number of times we mislead our readers, and that we lied to the governments. We know we caused psychological harm to many JW. We know that some JW died as a result of adhering to our prohibitions on blood transfusions; even some children died as a result. We know that our "two witness rule" has kept many sexually abused children, ones raised by JW parents, from getting the help they so desperately need. Will Christ judge us adversely? Will he execute us? Jehovah have mercy on us. Lord Jesus, please have mercy on us. Please spare us from your wrath."
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Date of Adam's "Creation?
by Slidin Fast inhow do jws resolve these conflicting facts.. 1. no matter how you spin it, bible chronology calculates to circa 4000 bc for adam's creation.
i followed the trail many years ago and that's what it adds up to.. 2. the most cursory investigation of any branch of relevant science puts man's habitation on the earth as hugely earlier than that.
it's now so well-proved that anyone disputing it is guilty of wilful ignorance.
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Disillusioned JW
https://reasons.org/explore/publications/articles/lost-civilization-beneath-the-persian-gulf-confirms-genesis-history-of-humanity (a web page of old Earth day age creationism) cites archeologist Jeffrey Rose in support of the idea that the Garden of Eden is now under the Persian Gulf. The article is by Hugh Ross and the articles says the following.
"University of Birmingham archeologist Jeffrey Rose .... In his paper, ... points out that during the late Pleistocene epoch (150,000 to 12,000 years ago) reduced sea levels periodically exposed the “Gulf Oasis.” The Persian Gulf receded to such a degree as to bring above the surface a landmass as large as, or larger than, Great Britain. Rose explains that this landmass was well watered by four large rivers flowing at the time: the Tigris, Euphrates, Karun, and Wadi Batin. Additionally, the region was watered by fresh water springs supplied by subterranean aquifers flowing beneath the Arabian subcontinent.
... Rose argues that during the latter part of the last ice age a thriving civilization existed in what is now the Persian Gulf. As sea levels rose and as water rushed in through the Strait of Hormuz to fill up the Persian Gulf (see figure 1), people would have exited the Gulf Oasis and formed settlements along the rising shoreline. ... Rose also points out that the water’s rushing in to fill up the Persian Gulf and other neighboring regions could explain the many flood accounts and myths that emanate from that part of the globe.
... Rose’s theory fits not only the biblical account of Noah’s flood, it comports especially well with the earlier chapters of Genesis. Skeptics have long charged that the Bible’s description of the Garden of Eden brings biblical inspiration and inerrancy into question. Genesis 2 claims that the Pishon, Gihon, Tigris, and Euphrates Rivers all meet together in Eden.3 However, the Pishon and Gihon flow out from the mountains of central Arabia (Havilah) and southwest Arabia (Cush), respectively, while the Tigris and Euphrates flow out from the mountains of Ararat in Armenia and Turkey (see figure 1).
As skeptics point out, nowhere on the planet do the four rivers come together. Their charge holds true—but only for today’s geography. All four rivers flow into different parts of the Persian Gulf and all four rivers meet together in what Rose identifies as the Gulf Oasis. As Rose points out, the Gulf Oasis was also watered by springs upwelling from subterranean aquifers. Genesis 2:6 also states that “streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.” Genesis 7:11 identifies “springs of the great deep” as part of the source of the flood waters that wreaked havoc upon the ungodly of Noah’s generation. The Gulf Oasis vindicates the unique claims Genesis makes about the Garden of Eden and its surroundings."
I encourage people to read the rest of Ross' short article. The "About" page of Ross' website says "We believe questions and dialogue are good because truth invites and withstands testing." I wish the WT and its JW religion had that attitude!
https://www.dfmanagement.tv/jeff-rose/ says the following about Dr. Jeff Rose. "He holds a BA in Classics, a MA in Archaeology, a second MA in Anthropology, and a PhD in Anthropology. Jeff’s interests cover a broad range of subjects: from human origins to early civilisations, ancient technologies to modern genetics, earth sciences to underwater archaeology, mythology to linguistics." The web page about Rose says he was the Presenter in a National Geographic Channel program in 2012 called "Diving into Noah’s Flood". It also says he was Presenter in two "Smithsonian Channel / BBC 2" programs in 2014, one called "Bible Hunters: the Search for Bible Truth" and the other called "Bible Hunters: the Search for Lost Gospels". The web page about Rose also says "Ancient Mysteries: Eden Revealed (Contributor) Smithsonian / UK Channel 5". -
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Date of Adam's "Creation?
by Slidin Fast inhow do jws resolve these conflicting facts.. 1. no matter how you spin it, bible chronology calculates to circa 4000 bc for adam's creation.
i followed the trail many years ago and that's what it adds up to.. 2. the most cursory investigation of any branch of relevant science puts man's habitation on the earth as hugely earlier than that.
it's now so well-proved that anyone disputing it is guilty of wilful ignorance.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction/Update: https://network.asa3.org/page/ASA_History says the American Scientific Affiliation now includes those who accept biological evolution. It says "In many ways it is this commitment to engage that ultimately transformed the ASA from its anti-evolutionary roots to its present openness to evolution as a biological theory." Instead of being a scientific organization of Christians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Scientific_Affiliation says "The American Scientific Affiliation (ASA) is a Christian religious organization of scientists and people in science-related disciplines." That article also says "The influence of an inner circle affiliated with Wheaton College led it to reject "strict" creationism in favor first of progressive creationism and then of theistic evolution, encouraging acceptance of evolution among evangelicals."
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Date of Adam's "Creation?
by Slidin Fast inhow do jws resolve these conflicting facts.. 1. no matter how you spin it, bible chronology calculates to circa 4000 bc for adam's creation.
i followed the trail many years ago and that's what it adds up to.. 2. the most cursory investigation of any branch of relevant science puts man's habitation on the earth as hugely earlier than that.
it's now so well-proved that anyone disputing it is guilty of wilful ignorance.
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Disillusioned JW
The scientist in the History Channel program about the Garden of Eden and about the flood, is the archaeologist named Juris Zarins. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Zarins says the following regarding his idea. "Zarins argued that the Garden of Eden was situated at the head of the Persian Gulf (present-day Kuwait), where the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers run into the sea, from his research on this area using information from many different sources, including LANDSAT images from space. In this theory, the Bible's Gihon River would correspond with the Karun River in Iran, and the Pishon River would correspond to the Wadi Batin river system that once drained the now dry, but once quite fertile central part of the Arabian Peninsula. His suggestion about the Pishon River is supported by James A. Sauer (1945–1999) formerly of the American Center of Oriental Research[10] although strongly criticized by the archaeological community."
https://mormonheretic.org/2015/07/13/atheist-find-garden-of-eden/ says that Zarins is an atheist! That web page mentions many of the things I saw in the History Channel program. That includes the following (as quoted from the above website).
"Researcher Juris Zarins from Missouri State University noted that every civilization has had a creation story, and some of the stories pre-date the story told in Genesis. He wondered why so many cultures tell this story, and wondered if the Garden of Eden may have actually existed. He noted that the Bible story bears remarkable resemblances to the Epic of Gilgamesh. Some of the details are quite similar to the story of Adam and Eve. He felt the Bible stories were plagiarized by the Hebrews who heard these stories from the Sumerians who have an older creation story that is 8000 years old.
... There are other Sumerian tales found in the Bible, such as The Tower of Babel. Sumer is called Shinar in the Bible. Many of these early Bible stories bear remarkable resemblances to more ancient Sumerian tales. Zarins believes that the Bible is just a Hebrew version of the story of Gilgamesh, and believes that Eden is the same place as Dilmun. He also knows that the eastern shores of Arabia, near Bahrain was once a lush area, even though today it is a desert.
... Everyone knows where the Euphrates River is, and Hiddekel is translated Tigris in most other translations. Ethiopia may be a mistranslation. The word is actually Cush, and some other Bibles translate it as Sudan, but Zarins noted that Iran was also known as Cush. Geographically, Iran makes much more sense than either Sudan or Ethiopia. ... If one can find these two other rivers (Pison and Gihon), they’ll find Eden. Interestingly, only the Bible mentions these other two rivers. ...
Zarins turned to Satellite photos to try to find these other two rivers. In the 1980s, satellite photos were hard to come by, but Zarins lucked out. He noted a dry channel in Saudi Arabia. On the ground, it looks just like a bunch of sand dunes and hardly looks like a river. Zarins learned that this river had water as the Ice Age was ending. Around 5-6000 BC, the area would have been lush with vegetation.
The Persian Gulf didn’t exist in the Ice Age and was once dry land. During the Ice Age, the sea level was 200 feet deeper. Due to the runoff, the Gulf filled with water, and is just 120 feet deep at it’s deepest point. Zarins believes this river is the Pison, which flowed much further east near Basra.
Zarins believes the fourth major river comes out of Zagros Mountains in Iran, called Karun. It originally connected to the Tigrus and Euphrates rivers until it was dammed in the 1970s. The Garden of Eden is now under water in the Persian Gulf. 8000 years ago, the climate was different, monsoon rains covered whole peninsula with rain, lush, green, so Sumerians thought Dilmun was the birth of humanity. Zarins thinks that the Tree of Knowledge was actually a story of how farming started. The narrator says,
According to Zarins, the Garden of Eden was the home to pre-historic humans, hunter-gatherers who were able to survive purely from what they found growing naturally. But as the last Ice Age ended, the waters in the world’s oceans began to rise. Eventually this garden of paradise drowned in the flood. In its place today, we find the Persian Gulf."
Not all of the stories of the Bible are 100% fiction. Some the biblical stories contain remnants of truth and those remnants of truth can help scientists find further knowledge of what happened in very ancient times!
https://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Book%20Reviews2005-/3-13.html (a web page of a scientific organization of Christian old Earth creationist scientists, or at least of Christians that are creationist scientists which includes old Earth creationists, even day age creationists) says the following. "Juris Zarins, now retired from Southwest Missouri State University, conducted years of field research in Egypt and the Arabian Peninsula. He contends that Semitic languages arose in an Arabian nomadic setting during a period of changing climate. In an aside to his scholarly work, Zarins proposes that the garden story is based on the migrations around 5000 BC of these foraging nomads to Mesopotamia where agriculture already flourished. The resulting cultural upheaval led to an oral tradition taking the nomadic standpoint, which portrayed agriculturists as taking God’s knowledge into their own hands to exploit the power of creation. As the Gulf continued to rise, the agriculturists were forced out of Eden. Using LANDSAT photos, archaeology, linguistics, and geology, he situates Eden underneath the present Persian Gulf. Wilensky-Lanford considers this the most credible garden theory, although it has not been embraced in academia as contemporary scholars show little interest in the geography of literal creation."
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Date of Adam's "Creation?
by Slidin Fast inhow do jws resolve these conflicting facts.. 1. no matter how you spin it, bible chronology calculates to circa 4000 bc for adam's creation.
i followed the trail many years ago and that's what it adds up to.. 2. the most cursory investigation of any branch of relevant science puts man's habitation on the earth as hugely earlier than that.
it's now so well-proved that anyone disputing it is guilty of wilful ignorance.
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Disillusioned JW
OK, I was wrong about the idea of the Noah flood story having roots in a flooding caused the rise of the Black Sea. I had confused the idea of the Black Sea being associated with the biblical story with the idea of flooding caused by expansion of the Persian Gulf. That flooding was into what was then called Sumeria. What was once the Garden of Eden is now under a portion of the Persian Gulf. It is as I stated in a different topic thread where I said the following. '... there is some evidence for a massive local flood that wiped out lush vegetation and a human population about 9,000 to 11,000 years ago, in (or very near) what later became know as Sumeria. What do you think of the History Channel program ... called "Decoding The Past: Mysteries of the Garden of Eden"? I think it makes very convincing claims.' In the program a scientist using satellite imaging found the channels of all four of the rivers mentioned in Genesis 2:10-14 which Genesis says pinpoints the location of the Garden of Eden! But (if I remember correctly) instead of the rivers issuing out of Eden to become heads, it is where they converged into Eden. Jeffro, you are thus correct in saying the flood story based on a local flood in Mesopotamia, but it was an emense flood.